Curse

Avarre · Sep 20, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

You could run high health on everyone, not use the ridiculous idea of a single character as the 'tank', and just have everyone heavily armored from shouts, spirits, wards, enchants, and other passive defense.

Effendi Westland · Sep 20, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

No PvE monster groups "spike" except through sheer luck. There is no coordinated effort to their behavior.

Mind burn spike in HM Tahnnakai temple comes to mind.

The Meth · Sep 20, 2007, 02:47 PM // 14:47

The time to use superior runes is either when

A. You are certain that you will be able to beat the area with no deaths.
or
B. You significantly increase your damage or protection, enough to compensate for the loss in health.
C. Have the proper positioning to avoid enemies.

A. Is true for about 85% of PvE.
B. Is true for certain skills, for example:

Splinter weapon, if your build can't allocate 12 points into channeling (without buffs) getting a major or sup takes you from 4x44 damage to 5 x 47 damage, over a 25% increase.

Minion Master: Minor vs Sup gives around 40 health more per minion (I think this is right) and 1 more minion, just from a standpoint of taking damage intended for you, you gain 40x9 + 440 = 800 more health in between you and the enemy. The damage increase is probably pretty significant as well, but I cant present any numbers

Broad Head Arrow ranger: I use BHA to shutdown any caster boss. As an example, EotN dungeon bosses have half condition duration. I use a + dazed bowstring. Minor rune means 13 seconds dazed, while a sup rune gives 14 seconds dazed. Recharge is 15. So taking a sup rune lowers the window of vulnerability by 50%.

C. Is true for certain team builds the rely upon all aggro being on a tank, there us little reason not to wear a sup rune when playing a caster in the deep when 100% of enemies are on the tank for example.

In all cases where you wear a superior rune you should also have a switch helm that has no - health, it really sucks when just getting 15% dp means every stray shot wipes you. (If you give your heroes sups or majors, you can expert salvage them off while in a mission and add them back when they lose DP). DP is a slippery slope, especially in very hard areas. If you get a little, its very easy to get more and soon you bottom out at 60 dp and die from stubbing your toe.

One case I can say it doesn't help that much is pure weapon damage. If I am calculating things correctly, the average difference from a max axe 6-28 with no mods between 14 and 16 axe, including criticals is about 2 damage per hit. Unless you hit a new breakpoint for adrenaline or energy gain, or you have a build that really spams skills quickly (Dragon Slash warrior comes to mind) Its probably better to stick with a minor, especially if you plan on to be on the front line.

If you can't hit a significant breakpoint aren't in a special group where you are sure you will be able to avoid damage, don't use a sup or major, a 5% or so damage increase is nothing compared to the fact that you do 0% damage while dead.

glountz · Sep 20, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You could run high health on everyone, not use the ridiculous idea of a single character as the 'tank', and just have everyone heavily armored from shouts, spirits, wards, enchants, and other passive defense.

That makes you loose time. You dedicate too much energy/time to defend everyone. You're not in PvP where people know how to switch targets. AI is dumb. You have to use it to your advantage, IMHO.
A corner-blocking tank (whoever he is, a 55Hp monk or a warrior) and sheer offense is what is the most time-efficient in PVE (from my experience). +75HP is not what will save you in say, Underworld.

korcan · Sep 20, 2007, 02:59 PM // 14:59

i normally run minors in pvp cause the extra health really helps.

as far as pve goes, i dont think that it really matters if you go with superior, major, or minor. normal mode pve is too easy really to pose any major obstacles for half-competent players.

i run major runes in hardmode pve but i dont see superior runes making or breaking a hardmode run.

edit - i have superior vigors on all my toons. all my heroes have major runes on their main attributes and major vigors.

Brianna · Sep 20, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I'd go to say that, using superior runes in PvE is completely harmless, as I've done it on all my chars for the past 2 years. It only matters in PvP imo.

My monk normally has 455 HP or something like that, 485 with my +30 heal offhand, and 515 hp with a +30 +5 energy weapon in hand. That is plenty of hp imo, never had problems.

But if you wanted you could then use a Major rune, +30 hp weapon and offhand, then you have alot more health. But really if you imagine how low your health gets with all the DP in PvP, the extra health does help lots, but i usually rely on weapons to get that.

Antheus · Sep 20, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

In PvE there's no reason NOT to use superior runes unless you're solo farming or something.

Prot spirit becomes more effective with less health.

Spirit Bond.

yesitsrob · Sep 20, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

That makes you loose time. You dedicate too much energy/time to defend everyone. You're not in PvP where people know how to switch targets. AI is dumb. You have to use it to your advantage, IMHO.
A corner-blocking tank (whoever he is, a 55Hp monk or a warrior) and sheer offense is what is the most time-efficient in PVE (from my experience). +75HP is not what will save you in say, Underworld.

From my experience you're wrong.
_

In areas where it actually slightly matters what you run the the difference between a minor and a superior is being killed in 1 hit, and being killed in 2 - with the latter you can prevent the death without having to pre prot absolutely everyone. You can prot spirit everyone, and often the mobs are that big. In one area where it really matters what you run, you can't prot spirit at all unless you want peoples skill bars disabled.

The time you save in killing some mobs due to your little extra damage is often lost in time you spend ressing people who get 1 hit killed by some pissed off thorn wolf or something.

I also don't find minors make me go slow in PvE. I still clear the deep and urgoz in just over 1 hour and Citadel in about 35 minutes.

Faer · Sep 20, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Superior Runes aren't really worth it in my opinion. Yeah, okay, it's nice for Minions or like, Searing Flames (which is terribaed by the way), but in general, nah, a couple of small numbers here and there aren't worth 75HP and getting aggro more often.

Just run all minors, DPS the shit out of everything, and win @ teh gaemz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

<snip>

I read the OP a few times, and I'm pretty sure this isn't thread wasn't made for people to cry about farming builds. If you don't like 55 Monks, fine, go stand in some major farming hub and cry about it there. Less attempted derailing of threads kthxbai.

zwei2stein · Sep 20, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

From my experience you're wrong.

Ditto. Placing tank takes too much time and aggro failure is usally huge setback that costs even more.

Shouts on the other hand are instant, wards and chants take one seccond but they are still very fast and there is usually time for them inbetween recharges of damage skills. Hexes and conditions are usually part of your offensive anyway. Spirits are slow, ofc, but you dont use those a lot. Your added value is on fact that you can affort to stand and keep casting/attacting when under fire. In groups with tanks you are usually dead if you try the same with broken aggro or you kite, which both means less damage from you. Besides, tank means loss of one damage dealer.

You really have to experience good duality group to appreciate how brutal and fast it can be. Reward for playing at a bit higher skill lever.

But feel free to play in whatever your playstyle is. I dont mind.

yesitsrob · Sep 20, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Ditto. Placing tank takes too much time and aggro failure is usally huge setback that costs even more.

Pretty much how I see it... by the time a tank can have got aggro, held it, etc... you could have cleared the group if you just charged in and took 0 damage while killing them anyway

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 20, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

[IMAGE]

People like you are the reason I don't do pickup groups anymore.

DreamRunner · Sep 20, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

People like you are the reason I don't do pickup groups anymore.

Oh thanks! Its nice to see that my efforts helps the community by making PuGs do better. But I'm sure your epic tanking skills helps the group so much too.

By the way do you go with [skill]mending[/skill] and [skill]vigorous spirit[/skill] too?

Most classes shouldn't run an sup rune. In pvp, I can see rangers using a major, but a minor is best for an class like the warrior. It isn't worth to loose -75 hp, because the difference of the 14-16 weapon mastery isn't that much.

Burton2000 · Sep 20, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

I dont think theres any situation in pvp where you need a sup rune. Id only consider running a major on say a paragon just because of their huge armour etc. otherwise minors all the way.

Shadowsoflifex · Sep 20, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I play an assassin (and I love the class). I'm a pretty big fan of superior runes. Even though there's a decent reduction in HP, it allows me to place points in other attributes that really make a difference.
My hp is only around 420-450hp (depending on morale/etc) but because of the runes I can managed a 9-10 hp regen almost all the time and a 75% chance to block most attacks(A/D with the spare points I saved put 8 into Earth). Even with lower HP I rarely die (only thing that really get's me is enchantment stripers, but that's when I "Tactfully retreat").
Last party I was in, the W/Mo had a 60% DP while I maintained a 10% morale boost

(Hell's Precipice).
IMO Superior runes are only needed if you have a way of keeping yourself alive without destroying the monks mana. If not, stick to the HP.
More or less it's all preference, most sins prefer zealous/vampiric and 15^50.
I use +5en and elemental damage/enchant20% daggers.
So I deal a little less damage, but I outlast 90% of the people in the party.

More or less, it's how you enjoy the game.

Shuuda · Sep 20, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Surely if you're kiting, you're not doing your job, and so the superior rune becomes worthless? It's like Mhenlo in Eye of the North. The monsters LOVE to target him, nearly every time. Noone get's healed. Why? Mhenlo's kiting.

But if he's dead, then surely he's not doing his job even more, and wastes a res. In the long run, kiting works better than just standing and healing all the damage you take.

OI-812 · Sep 20, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Superior Rune + Sup Vigor + Major Rune + 2 Vitae Runes + Full Survivor = break even at 480, right where you started, have 16 in one stat and 14 in another. Works like a charm for my caster heroes. 16 Fire Magic + 14 Energy Storage makes for a very nice dedicated flamethrower-type. Same could be applied to Monks and Monk heroes, substituting the Major ES for a Major Divine Favor, but I don't see the point, really. Mesmers/Mesmer heroes centered around lengthy cast time spells obviously would benefit from a Major Fast Casting (14 FC makes Res Chant Faster than a Res Sig IIRC), although I'm not entirely sure if ANY of the Mesmer spell lines merit using a Sup Rune. Death Magic is definitely worth a Sup Rune (unless you are running one of those nasty SV hardmode wimpy minion builds, which I think are sheer genius).

Sophitia Leafblade · Sep 20, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I became involved in a discussion which has caused me to decide to look at the way I play the game. A self-evaluation if you like. The discussion was one regarding the use of Superior Runes. It has been brought to my attention that a monk, using a Superior Rune, may have certain...weaknesses, and that actually, the +2 attributes and the -75 health is not worth the extra healing, which is often only around 10 HP.

+1 in any attribute makes very little difference in any profession, all skills scale relativly small eg. +1-7 damage per attrib point increase. However GW is a game where defeat and victory teders on a knife edge. Every little bit counts, thats why tiny little effects such as -1 damage reduction, +7 hit points (the difference between major and sup vigor) can help considerably, on paper they make very little difference but in practice these small little increases all combine together to make u Over-power or Out-think your foes. Gw is all about %'s eg. weapons do bonus 20% while customised, every little bit extra you can slap into your % helps. Times that by the number of your team and those tiny extra effects can turn your team from a failure to a party of champions, this is especially true when in long periods of combat.

Ofc ur build and play style are far larger factors to sucess but non the less small little buffs add considerably to a team. wanting hp over 7 extra damage is a simple choice for players, if you stay out of trouble u might as well do the extra damage if you take lots of damage then ur best with the extra hp. its no different a choice from deciding to have a +30hp weapon mod or a +something else weapon mod.

Jeremy Untouchable · Sep 20, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

As a warrior i will allways have 16 in the weapon i'm using, unless tanking, my monk uses the same head tats to 55 as he does for regular monking so the sups stay on those as well. Normally i put minors on my armor as i'm lvling up and switch to major or sup when i need to for a build.

Yichi · Sep 20, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

The only sup rune I have on any character besides sup vigors for the actual characters, is the sup death rune on my dedicated mm hero. I do have a headpiece for my ele with a sup fire, although I never use it.